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Deaf People Reveal Things People Accidentally Sign

Deaf People Reveal Things People Accidentally Sign

Deaf People Reveal Things People Accidentally Sign

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American Sign Language is a complete, complex language that employs signs made by moving the hands combined with facial expressions and posture. It is the primary language of many deaf North Americans. But moving your hands while talking is something a lot of people do naturally.

So Reddit user Thatdamnalex asked "Deaf people of Reddit, what are some common things people unknowingly sign when they gesture with their hands while talking?"

Here are their answers.

Design Disaster

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The royal college of nursing's logo in the U.K. is very similar to the sign for the "F" word.

Horses of Hell

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I grew up in a very religious, home schooled community. And once a rather charasmatic church with a large number of deaf members decided to host a week long ASL camp. I went and on the first day, we had an ice breaker game where we would all sign something about ourselves. At the time, I worked with and owned a horse. So I fingerspelled my name then signed that I loved horses. Suddenly, there's a quiet gasp and my deaf teacher freaks the f--- out and someone hearing asked me what I meant to say because apparently I confused the sign for "horse" with the sign for "devil".

Rude

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You know that meme going around with people doing the "OK" hand shape? Yeah, that means "asshole" in ASL.

To clarify, I'm talking about this meme.

That Could be a Problem

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The sign for "divorce" and "defecate everywhere" are fairly similar. In an ASL, we were signing things about our families. I meant to sign "my parents are divorced." What I signed was "my parents defecate everywhere."

My (Deaf) teacher laughed her ass off.

Devout

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I had a nervous tic when I was younger where I'd bounce my middle fingers back and forth on the opposite palms when I was talking.

Yeah, I found out I was just signing "Jesus" over and over.

Noodles

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My girlfriend works in Special Education and knows sign language. She just started working at a new school, and was a little rusty with her signs. She was assigned a kid who was deaf. Her entire first few days she was working with him he would refuse to get in line. Turns out the sign for pasta and line are very similar. She was unknowingly telling the kid to "Get in the pasta".

Struck Dumb

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People putting a "2" on their forehead.

It means stupid.

The "L" Word

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People putting 'L' or the index and thumb under their chin for pictures. It means lesbian.

Doubling Up

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People's usual gesture for "3" actually means "6" in ASL.

Get an Exorcist

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I am deaf. A fair amount of pastors loosely sign "Satan" early on around prayer and before their sermon. It's actually very strange because while it is something someone could accidentally sign when addressing a large crowd like a church, it happens quite often.

Rock On

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I am not deaf but my parents are and I know ASL fluently. The "rock" symbol facing yourself ????is a short-hand (pun intended) version of BS. I fronted a metal band in my 20's and my parents would come and watch the shows to support even though they couldn't hear me. They thought everyone in the crowd thought we were BS.

Placement is Everything

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The thank you and "F" you sign are very similar. Every time I teach someone how to say thank you and you're welcome, they almost always put their hand under their chin instead putting their hand on their chin can make a big difference in meaning.

Trashy

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I'm Deaf. People who do the 'duh' hand gesture like curved hand against side of head.... It's the same word for garbage can!

Colorful

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I do the hand gestures that surfers do a lot as a wave, otherwise known as a shaka. Turns out I'm just saying yellow.

Working Hard

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I took 3 years of American Sign Language in college. When I was in my first semester, our assignment was to go to the front of the class and sign what we did over the weekend. explained that on Saturday "I worked all day." My professor pulled me aside after class and told me I actually signed "I pleased myself all day." Thankfully at that point, nobody caught on except for her, but she did laugh her ass off. Those signs are strangely close together.

Close Enough

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Vagina (versus) triangle is a common one. I'm taking jiu jitsu, and my instructor tried to sign a triangle for the triangle choke. My deaf friend and I looked at each other and cracked up. We now sign the triangle choke as vagina choke.

People Share Their Best 'Don't Ask How I Know That' Fun Facts

Reddit user Dry_Bus_935 asked: 'What is your "don't ask how I know" random fact?'

Person holding large stack of books
Photo by Jay Lamm on Unsplash

Whether you're naturally interested in fun facts and trivia or not, it's always nice to know a few that you can pull out of your pocket at a moment's notice as a nice conversation starter.

But there are some fun facts out there that are so weird, people become more preoccupied with how the teller found out that information rather than the information itself.

Redditor Dry_Bus_935 asked:

"What is your 'don't ask me how I know' random fact?"

Nuclear Fail Safe

"You have quite a lot of time, certainly more than ten seconds, to turn back on the main pumps of a nuclear reactor once you have accidentally turned them off."

- egorf

"I'm not surprised. The amount of fail safes, redundancies, and emergency scenario planning for nuclear power plants is insane."

"I toured a nuclear plant and wrote my high school senior thesis on the plans put in place to ensure the Fukushima disaster would not happen at that plant."

"I'm sure the secondary pumps are plenty capable of handling the reactor until the main pumps are repaired or just turned back on."

- Borderlandsman

Happy Cat

"If your cat chews on fresh eucalyptus, they might start hallucinating and fall over repeatedly, leading to a $400 emergency vet bill just to be told she’s just kinda high."

- oddidealstronghold

"And, that's part of why koalas love it. Little stoners."

- littlebluefoxy

Archaeology: Do Not Lick

"Old human bones are very porous, so if you lick them, they’ll stick to your tongue."

- clanculcarius

Sharing is Caring

"A pigeon will only eat a Starburst if you chew it up a little bit first. Just to clarify: chew the Starburst, not the pigeon."

- OhTheHueManatee

"Instructions unclear. Pigeon unhappy."

- Wild-Lychee-3312

Intriguing Anatomy

"Everyone is here with the creepy crime stuff, and I'm just like, 'A soft fur rat has 22 nipples.'"

- horroscoblue

"Okay, so either they have really small nipples, their nipples overlap, or they have nipples in places where there shouldn't be nipples."

"(I've never written the word 'nipples' so many times in a singular sentence before.)"

- GdeGraaf

'Don't Ask Me,' Indeed!

"Turmeric can be used as clothes dye. It is capable of permanently dyeing cotton cloth even after it has passed through the digestive tract of an adult male."

- SlefeMcDichael

"You s**t your pants, didn't you?"

- PMmecrossstitch

"I'd prefer not to answer that question."

- SlefeMcDichael

High-Risk Survival Skills

"If you ever trying to survive in the Arctic, don’t eat polar bear liver. It is so high in vitamin A, it will kill you."

- WrongWayCorrigan-361

"It's also surrounded by a lethal amount of angry polar bear."

- horanc2

Real-Life Spies

"TV shows and movies go out of their way to make military/intelligence officers look bada**."

"But real-life 'spies,' by design and training, are boring. They have regular houses and standard second-hand cars, they dress down, and they have vague, boring job titles (accounts receivable) as cover, and they do not draw attention to themselves. Most come from specialized academia."

- Ok_Worth_1093

Haunting Reality

"Your muscles can keep twitching for several hours after you die."

- JustDave62

"Also, beards can appear to grow. This is however not because the beard itself grows but because the skin shrinks."

- RRautamaa

"I worked at a morgue for over eight years. If you grasp the hand of a dead body to move the arm, the hand will grasp back, but that's just muscles and tendons reacting to the tension."

- goneferalinid

The Sneakiness of Drowning

"When a drowning victim is revived, get them to a hospital as soon as possible. Drowning is the leading cause of death of kids from the age of one to seven and is ruled as accidental drowning when it comes to secondary drowning or dry drowning."

"Basically, your lungs are full of water despite being revived. Your lungs will absorb the liquid, but not before your body acidifies from high levels of carbon dioxide. The only chance to survive is to have the lungs pumped with oxygen via CPAP machine and time."

"Also, drowning is extremely quiet. You don’t hear the victim go under. And if you see flailing, do not attempt to save the victim otherwise you’ll become another drowning victim. Throw them a lifeline and hope their amygdala realizes that a rope or something is floating near them and grabs on it."

- Dfiggsmeister

Not Everyone's Favorite Chocolate

"Hershey’s chocolate has the strong smell of vomit or feces to some people (me), and that’s because they use butyric acid as a preservative. Butyric acid is the compound that makes vomit smell so bad."

"Edit: Digging further into it, there are some claims that they may not be “adding” the butyric acid, but rather it is occurring from essentially spoiling the milk in their milk chocolate. Either way, the butyric acid and putrid smell remains a part of their product."

- hefewiseman1

"That explains the weird aftertaste I always get! I don’t smell it but their chocolate always has this super unpleasant sharp/acidic aftertaste that I find repulsive. I assume this is why!!"

- PomegranateNo975

Do Not Lick the Asbestos

"Asbestos tastes like chalk. And if you lick it, it has the texture of extremely gritty sandpaper. Which is actually the feeling of microscopic asbestos needles piercing your flesh!"

- TooYoungToBeThisOld1

Mapping Out the War

"Beginning in 1911 in anticipation of the outbreak of WW1 in 1914, two statesmen, one from England and one from France, began visiting locations in France that they believed would be the settings for a number of major battles that would occur during the great war."

"Long bike rides through these future battle zones in the countryside and weeks spent building a foundation for a French-Anglo codebook that would later prove important in helping win the war."

- fjordperfect123

Avoiding Lawsuits > Protecting Patients

"Doctors, or surgeons more specifically, that make too many mistakes during surgery, ie, leaving instruments in patients, frequently gets ‘quietly traded’ to other hospitals where they continue their path of destruction with the patients not being aware of their past record. Hospitals tend to keep quiet about the matter to avoid lawsuits."

- Kittytigris

Bonus Points: Do This While Having Lunch in Your Car

"If you overfill a fast food gravy cup and then put a lid on, it will create a pressurized gravy stream that sprays all over your face and uniform while your coworker looks on in horror."

- thechaosjester776

This subReddit thread was so a roller-coaster of random facts, we've surely all walked away learning something.

But the biggest takeaway might just be: Maybe don't lick so many things.

Shocked woman covering her mouth
vaitheeswaran Nataraj/Unsplash

When we're intoxicated, or even the slightest bit tipsy from having a little too much to drink, our immediate perspective on things is hazy.

But there's nothing like a bit of alarming news or a jarring incident to snap us out of the fog and focus on the moment.

Sometimes alcohol isn't always to blame for our impairment.

It can be a state of mind, like a perpetual numbness from being complacent in life, and all it takes is one shocking moment to rattle us back to our senses.

Curious to hear from strangers online about this type of scenario, Redditor Known_Challenge_7150 asked:

"What’s one thing that sobered you up real quick?"

These individuals were witness to shocking events that sobered them up right quick.

Bleeding Out

"Got out of a taxi and found a naked man profusely bleeding from his head crawling up the driveway in my condo. Called him an ambulance completely forgot I was absolutely wasted until 45 minutes later when I'd helped him translate and in to an amublance and stepped in my front door."

"Later a few days later learned he'd slipped in the tub and literally crawled out for help. Poor dude. He was fine but I genuinely thought he was going to die there."

– DongLaiCha

Tragic News

"At a bachelor party and we got a phone call that the groom’s father had suddenly passed."

– accountnameredacted

Bottom Of The Barrel

"I went to visit my parents back in July. I was homeless and deep into fentanyl addiction so I lost a lot of weight. My folks could see it. They knew something was up. Anyway, I spent the night and I was getting ready to leave in the morning and I looked at myself in the mirror for a good long time. I finally had enough and told them everything. They took me to detox, from there I went to rehab. Graduated in August and been living with them ever since then. I have 160 days clean and sober."

– Crotch-Monster

A reality check can be enough for some people to snap out of it.

Like Father, Like Son

"Was driving a drunk friend home, he had been on a bender again and was smart enough to call me for a lift rather than try and drive. As I helped in to his house his mother came down the stairs and said 'your as drunk as your father' and went back upstairs. I haven't seen him drunk since then, he still drinks but the thought of turning into his dad scared him out of hard drinking."

– psycospaz

Busted

"Flashing blue lights."

– FiddleOfGold

"This sobered me up just thinking about it."

– redmaple_syrup

Losing Sight

"Woke up to no sight in one eye. I had cataract surgery so just thought one of the lenses had slipped and it was an easy fix. Eye doc says nope, you had a stroke. I loved soy sauce, teriyaki sauce and salty food, which caused high blood pressure, which caused retina damage. Over six months was able to get most of my eyesight back with medication, and all back within a year. Trying to navigate life with one eye was very sobering. Started taking HBP much more seriously."

– MissHibernia

Quitting The Bottle

"Looked up someone I went to highschool with who was an awesome guy. Found out he had been dead for 3 years from alcoholism, at age 33. I made an overnight change. I hadn't started drinking that night yet, 10 months ago. Haven't touched it again since."

– omgtater

These disturbing moments were enough for Redditors to immediately come to their senses.

Unplanned House Guests

"Me and a buddy Woke up in someone’s living room, realized neither one of us knew the people, they were just nice and let 2 drunk guys sleep on their living room floor. We didn’t even say goodbye."

– Oneinsevenbillion75

Serious Health Warning

"Elevated liver enzymes."

"And the knowledge that this sh** was gonna kill me and I just couldn't orphan my family over it."

"So I opted for recovery, instead."

"Clean and sober since June 5, 2009."

– Far_Meal8674

The Joyride

"Grew up in a rural area. The little town hosted dances at the hockey arena, everyone (adults and kids) went and they overserved everyone, regardless of age. I was maybe 16 or 17 and was absolutely sh*tfaced, and jumped in the back of someone's truck with about 8 other people to go back to someone's cottage for after dance drinking. The driver (still don't know who it was) started racing one of his buddies and we whipped around small dirt roads, flying around blind corners on the wrong side of the road, going god knows how fast. It was basically a disaster waiting to happen. It was crazy scary and I was sober and thankful to be alive when we finally arrived."

– foxfood9116

The human psyche is a fascinating thing, isn't it?

How we can automatically focus on something urgent at a crucial time, even after getting buzzed from drinking too much alcohol.

But as we're in the thick of the holidays, it's a good reminder to drink responsibly and stay off the roads if you drive to your celebratory destination.

Cheers. Stay safe. And happy holidays.

Woman holding multiple shopping bags
Photo by freestocks on Unsplash

We've all complained or vented about something in our lives which, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't exactly a problem, or is very easily solved.

Then there are those who complain about things that others almost hope will happen to them at some point in their lives.

These are known as "first world problems", as they are problems that pretty much only the world's one percent faces.

From having to fly business class instead of first class, or being served Roederer instead of Dom Pérignon, these complaints are often met with amusement, bewilderment, or even anger.

Redditor jennimackenzie was curious to hear the most absurd "first world problems" anyone ever complained about, leading them to ask:

"What’s the most ridiculous 'first world problem' you’ve seen people get worked up over?"

"Tale As Old As Time..."

"I once knew a mom who was legitimately devastated, to the point of tears/grief, because a doctor predicted her 8 year old daughter's final height to be around 5'2","

"Which wasn't tall enough to get cast as Belle at Disney World."

"That was the child's (and her mother's) only dream in life, apparently."

"Didn't appreciate my suggestion that she could be Minnie or Mickey."

"Lol!"

"Only a face character would do!"- TravelLovingMom

"Must Be Funny, In A Rich Man's World..."

"My boss from about a decade ago was this insanely rich dude who always went to the bank to get fresh and crisp currency."

"He'd call the bank in advance to make sure they had some on hand."

"I think he was a germaphobe."

"He had a trash can that he'd throw $1 and $5 bills in that he thought was 'dirty' and regularly just donated it vs spending it."

"I asked him why he did this and he said it was too much trouble and asked if I wanted it."

"I said f*ck yeah dumped it into my bag and when I got home it was close to $400 in singles and fives.

"Another time, he wanted to upgrade all the computers in his studio, so we went to a store and bought 10 PCs."

"They all had $150 mail in rebates and he wasn't bothered to go through the trouble of mailing them in."

"3 weeks later I received $1500 after spending a whole afternoon filling out all those goddamn forms."- azninvasion2000

Money Burn GIF by nog Giphy

Who Wore It Better?

"When I was about 19 years old, I was at my boyfriends family BBQ."

"I was wearing this pretty floral sundress."

"His cousins girlfriend showed up in the same dress and she was SO mad that she went and changed."

"I will never understand being upset when someone is wearing the same thing as you.'

"Did you really think that your shirt you bought off the rack is going to be unique to you?"

"No."- mertsey627

Seeing Red! Or Blue In This Case...

"The blue of the balloons wasn't quite the same as the bridesmaid's sashes."

"Years ago my wife and I attended a wedding."

"It was very low key."

"The dinner was in the dining hall at the university where the couple met, cinder block walls and all."

"It was a Baptist wedding - no booze and very serious."

"The dark blue balloons attempting to liven up the hall were a slightly darker shade of blue than the sashes on the bridesmaid's dresses."

"The bride lost here sh*t and absolutely raved for nearly an hour."

"I can't remember how they finally managed to talk her down."- mechant_papa

south park wedding GIF Giphy

See You In Court!

"Rich neighbors who end up in expensive court battles because they disagree about where a tree can be planted or whether the color of a fence fits in with the street’s 'amenity'."

'These disputes get really heated and rack up huge lawyers’ bills."

"The most pathetic part is after the judgement when they are arguing about who should pay the other party’s costs."

"Lots of affidavits filed citing the 'emotional distress' they had to endure, or painting themselves as brave warriors who were forced to take a stand to fight for 'justice'."

"Also lots of pompous litigants insisting that the judge refer to them by their 'Dr' title."

"An absolutely insane dumpster fire of entitled rich people problems."- ElectrocRaisin

It's Always People With Money Who Don't Want To Pay!

"I work in a public library."

"People will get so so mad if they have to be put on a wait list for a book."

"A popular book that just came out."

"Ok our services are not only free but so are the books."

"You’re welcome, a**holes."- Switchbladekitten

A Warm Butt Is A Happy Butt!

"My own."

"We have a bidet toilet seat (Fabulous! Everyone should have one!) and not only does it wash your bum and blow dry it, but the seat's heated!"

"It's shocking how much a heated toilet seat makes the whole process more agreeable."

"Except: We had a power outage and I went to use the toilet and the seat was cold!"

"Unacceptable!"

"This shall not stand!"

"I was really upset because it didn't feel good."

"Then I stopped and thought: This is the most first-world problem anyone's ever had."

"I was really pissed because my heiny was tepid."

"I got over it."- DeathGrover

homer simpson episode 23 GIF Giphy

Holy Matrimony!

"Weddings are a gold mine for this question."

"People get so hyped up over their 'most important day of their life'."

"They'll destroy friendships, go into debt, and have crazy expectations."

"It's not always the couple who go crazy, either."

"Sometimes, it's the parents or another family member who feels entitled to control the wedding."

"It's just a party."

"Be considerate of guests, have plenty of food and drinks, and enjoy it."- magicrowantree

When Fast Food Isn't Fast Enough...

"Having to pull off to the side to wait for a drive-thru order to be brought out to you because your food isn't ready and there's a line building up behind you."- demanbmore

In Case You Don't Think Customer Service Employees Are Undervalued...

"I was working the return desk at a Target next to a military base so I have so many stories."

"One of my favorites was a lady who had her baby shower before revealing the gender and was livid that she had received floral newborn diapers when she’s having a boy."

"It was a huge box of super expensive, all organic diapers, that we didn’t carry and therefore could not return."

"I cannot accurately express her fury and disgust."

"How dare either suggest her boy could wear feminine diapers."

"I suggested she donate them if she didn’t want to use them and she instead threw away the entire box."

"When she left we pulled it out and threw it in our donate bin."

"There have also been multiple times where mom’s order massive toys and when we bring them out to the car they get furious that they aren’t wrapped."

"We don’t offer wrapping services."

"Here’s the thing, if you don’t want your kids to see the toys you got them for Christmas or their bit to day DON'T BRING THE CHILD WHEN YOU PICK IT UP."

'I’ve had multiple women scream and curse me out that I had ruined their kids Christmas by bringing the toys they ordered out to the car like they requested."- clever-mermaid-mae

Customer Service Waiting GIF by Juno Calypso Giphy

Happiest Place On Earth!

"I used to work for Disney."

"That in itself should tell you everything."

"However for fun I'll give you two specific stories one form our tech department and one from my wife who worked bookings."

"I specifically worked for their call center to help with technical issues with magic band and the website."

"Suddenly got worse huh?"

"A right of passage call everyone has at least one story of is the 'Dome call'."

"Basically there is a subset of Disney Guest (TM) that believes if it rains at Walt Disney world there is someone that will push a button to encapsulate the whole of Disney property in a dome to keep out the rain."

"I'm not kidding."

"If this button is not pushed they call our tech department to angrily ask why."

"My wife worked booking."

"Pretty much everything including Bibbidi Bobbidi boutique and Pirate's league."

"These two things did roughly the same thing difference being price and theme."

"BBB was expensive did more and was focused on princesses, pirates league did a bit less and focused on mermaids and pirates."

"Lady called up my wife, and got pissed about BBB being booked up (It goes FAAAAST)."

"Karen: 'Im going to give the phone to my daughter and I want you to tell her how you are ruining her vacation by not letting her do BBB'."

"Wife proceeds to explain how pirate's league is so much cooler and how she can be a mermaid or pirate and basically gets the kid to start demanding to their parents about how they want to be a mermaid instead of a princess."- trollsong

Disney World GIF Giphy

The horror!

Being booked into a junior suite at Disney World instead of an executive suite!

It's almost as bad as having no money for groceries, or no food to feed you children...

Said absolutely no one.


Four mistreated baby dolls are hung by barb wire
Photo by J Lopez

For many childhood memories are overrun by living nightmares.

Yes, children are resilient, but that doesn't mean that the things we see as babes don't follow us forever.

The horrors of the world are no stranger to the young.

Redditor -2sweetcaramel- wanted to see who was willing to share about the worst things we've seen as kids, so they asked:

"What’s the creepiest thing you saw as a kid?"

Serious Danger

"Me and my best friend would explore the drainage tunnels under the Vegas area where we grew up. These were miles long and it was always really cool down there so it was a good way to escape the heat of our scorching hot summers. We went into this one that goes under the Fiesta casino and found a camp with a bunch of homeless people."

"Mind you we are like 11 years old lol. And we just kept going like it was nothing. It wasn’t scary then but when I look back at it we could have been in some serious danger. Our parents had no idea we did this or where we were and we had no cellphones. We could have been kidnapped and never have been found."

oofboof2020

Waiting for Food

"I was at a portillos once when I was 12 and I was waiting with my little brother at a booth while my parents got our food. This guy was standing with his tray kind of watching me then after a couple of minutes he started to walk over really fast not breaking eye contact with me."

"He was 2 feet from the table and my dad came out of nowhere and scared the s**t out of him. He looked so surprised and just said he wanted to see if I’d get scared or not. He left his tray full of food near the door and left. My folks reported him but we never went to that location again since we found a better one closer to home."

nowhereboy1964

Captain Hobo to the Rescue

"When I was a pretty young teen, my friends and I were horsing around in San Francisco and started hanging out to smoke with some homeless guys. Another homeless dude came up and began aggressively trying to shake us down for anything (money, smokes, a ride, drugs- all of it) and wouldn’t take no for an answer."

"We got in over our heads and could tell this guy was now riling the other 2 guys up and they were acting like they wanted to jump us. Some grandfather-looking old homeless man appeared out of nowhere and yelled at us to get the f**k out of here- nice kids like us don’t belong down here at this hour!!"

"Captain Hobo saved our lives that night. My parents sincerely thought we were at a mall all day lol."

FartAttack911

Survival

tsunami GIF Giphy

"I was 7 and survived the 2004 tsunami in Thailand. Witnessed the wave rise way above the already massive palm trees (approx. 40ft?) and my family and I watched/heard the wave crash into the ground from a rooftop."

faithfulpoo

These Tsunami stories are just tragic.

On the Sand

Scared The Launch GIF by CTV Giphy

"We were a group of kids who went to swim in a local lake. And there was a dead body on the beach with their hands raised and their legs bent unnaturally that local police just took out of the same lake. I've never put my foot in these waters again."

oyloff

Be Clever

"I was walking to school and I was about 5 or 6 years old and some guy pulled up beside me in his car and asked if I would get in. He also offered me sweets to do so. I said no. The creepy bit was when he calmly said ‘clever boy’ to me, then drove off. I’ve never even told my parents or anyone else about this as it would most likely freak them out."

OstneyPiz

Bad Jokes

"Dad's side of the family pranked me by burying a fake body on our back property and had me dig it up to find valuables. Was only allowed to use a lantern for light. They stuffed old clothes with chicken bones. Sheetrock mud where the head was... Random fake jewelry as the treasures... I was like maybe 10 or 11.. I remember digging up the boot first and started gagging because it became real at that point."

Alegan239

YOU

Who Are You Reaction GIF by MOODMAN Giphy

"Woke up to find my little brother staring at me in the dark, asking, Are you really you?"

PrettyLola2004

Siblings can really be a bunch of creepers.

No one should talk to others in the dark though.