Women Explain Which Mistakes Dads Make Raising Daughters
Reddit user Bluemonday82 asked: 'Daughters of reddit: what's the biggest mistake dads make with their daughters?'
"Daddy's Girl, Daddy's Girl, I'm the center of Daddy's world..." ~ "Daddy's Girl" by Red Sovine
A lot has been written about the bond between fathers and daughters.
But there's always room for improvement, right?
And who better to offer constructive criticism than daughters?
Reddit user Bluemonday82 asked:
"Daughters of Reddit: what's the biggest mistake dads make with their daughters?"
Affection
"My dad and I recently talked about how he stopped showing physical affection when I hit puberty (20 years ago). He didn't know how to act because his sisters got treated inappropriately by others when he was young, and he wanted to be sure I never felt like that."
"It resulted in me never getting hugs or kisses on the cheeks anymore. He also didn't know how to talk about it in the past."
"But in the last years, he worked through so much of his rough childhood and really learned to express himself better. He apologized, and I said I understood and that his intentions came from a good place, that the only bad thing was all the hugs we missed out on."
"We hugged for a really long time after that, and we've been hugging extra tight ever since."
"So I guess what I wanna say is, don't treat your daughters differently when their bodies start to change. And always keep talking!"
"I'm so proud of my dad for the person he's become."
"For a while, I didn't wanna hug my dad either. Puberty was rough for me, and the adults in my life kept acting like it was just a phase."
"And I guess it was, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the most emotionally complicated and lonely period of my life. The feelings weren't less real."
"My dad and I struggled a lot. He didn't know how to express himself at all, and I was so overwhelmed I didn't know either."
"I also grew up with two autistic brothers who needed a lot of care and attention. I love them so much, but it resulted in me always looking out for them and never learning (until just a few years ago) to properly give space to my own inner turmoil."
"My brothers were never physically affectionate either. But once I got out of the heaviest puberty years, I did want that affection from my dad. For a while, male physical attention was a very complicated topic for me."
"A Christian upbringing also played a role in that cause as a young girl growing into a woman, it had a lot to say about how I should behave around men."
"Something important to add is that my dad's rough childhood not only made it hard to show love but also receive it. His journey started with the realization that he had no idea how to react to getting compliments."
"I think that's a thing that a lot of men (from his generation especially, but also younger ones) will recognize. Know that we are all deserving of love and kindness, especially from our loved ones, but even more so from ourselves!"
"My dad couldn't ever have grown this much without learning to really understand what that means. And diving into the withholding of love from his parents heavily impacted how he dealt with that himself."
"I'm so glad my dad and I could both grow and work through our issues. Even if he couldn't show or say it, I never really doubted his love for me."
"But I know he would encourage you all to learn how to show and receive appreciation! That man is my example for people never being too old to learn."
"I'm sending love and strength to all of you who struggle with this in one way or another."
"And to the fathers who feel like their young kids don't want their affection, just know that this will most likely change again over time. They might act like they don't wanna hear it, but keep letting them know you're there for them."
~ yuffieisathief
Showing Up
"The one mistake my dad made was not really being present. A lot of the memories I have of him are him watching TV or being on the computer and not having time to play with me."
"He always said he’s too tired or he’ll come play later but then he never did. So since we never really bonded when I was little we weren’t all that close as I grew older either."
~ katie__kat
Communication
"Getting angry for something the kid doesn't know, and never teaching it. Not before and not even after getting angry.
"Doing something you know upsets the kid on purpose."
"Slamming doors and stuff in the house because you're angry."
"Not listening, and talking only to make themselves look smart and great parents rather than talking for helping."
~ yoyuayu
"I'll never forget the time my dad saw me put something metal in the microwave. I don't know how old I was, but I know I needed to push a chair to the counter to even reach the microwave."
"He SCREAMED at me for several minutes about how STUPID I was and how he couldn't believe I would do something SO INCREDIBLY DUMB and was I trying to start a fire??"
"I had no idea you weren't supposed to put metal in a microwave."
"I did learn a few things that day- don't put metal in the microwave and don't do anything wrong in front of Daddy. Oh, but you won't know if was wrong or not until too late..."
~ DrScarecrow
"Didn’t have to look very far to find the description of my dad—especially slamming doors and hitting things loudly when upset while stomping all over the house."
"People always get a kick out of how jumpy I am (easily startled), but it’s reflexive from anticipating loud bangs/crashing that would come out of nowhere every day."
~ ouija__bored
"My dad had such a short temper. He didn't necessarily hit me, but I got spanked til I was 9 years old and then my mom told him I was too old for that."
"But whenever he was angry (and that was a lot of the time) he'd scream and sometimes slam things."
"My husband slammed his hand onto the table a couple times during fights near the beginning, but realized he was wrong for acting like that, especially seeing how I'd immediately shut down. He's gotten much better."
~ Educational_Cat_5902
Being Your Child's Bully
"Singing in a falsetto voice and poking until your autistic kid is screaming at you to stop isn’t 'fun' or teaching them to be less sensitive, it’s why they don’t ever want to hang out with you."
~ Redqueenhypo
"Making fun when your small daughter is having big feelings."
"I got so furiously frustrated when my parents wouldn't listen to what I was trying to tell them and my dad just loooooved to mock my crying or squeaky 'upset' voice back at me."
"It made me so f*cking hurt and angry to not only be ignored and patronized, but actively MOCKED when I tried to communicate."
"Now as an adult I don't bother trying to share anything with them."
"Another classic was when I was disappointed and said, 'aww, man' he'd scrunch up his face, raise his voice three octaves, and 'AwW mAn!!' back at me."
"So now I wasn't just sad and disappointed, but sad, disappointed, and humiliated!"
"Imagine choosing to be your child's first bully... 😞"
~ Not_a_werecat
Just a Girl
"Or from my experience—not even bothering to teach anything because Dad assumes his daughter wouldn't be interested because she's a girl."
"Worse—actively making sh*tty jokes about women not liking those things."
~ Cinnapuns
"Not having anything to do with their daughters because the dad 'doesn't have anything in common with a girl'."
"This goes double if a son shows up and the dad is really involved in the son's life."
~ Dangerous_Contact737
Puberty Isn't a Disease
"My dad basically bailed on parenting once I hit puberty."
"Like, you think I’m enjoying this? It would have been great to have another supportive adult around."
~ captain_flasch
"Same! What’s up with that?"
"I remember having a good relationship with my dad as a child but he emotionally cut me off and stopped hanging out with me when the boobs came in."
"I would be lying if I said that I’m past it and it doesn’t f*ck with my head still."
~ Pandapartyatmidnight
Know Nothing
"Literally knowing nothing about their daughters lives."
"Those ‘funny’ videos where they ask fathers basic questions—like what their daughter's birthday, or eye color, or school is—and the dads have no idea are not at all funny.
"I love my dad but he can’t tell you anything about me—even the name of the place I’ve worked for over 6 years."
~ Lazylioness17
"One year when I was in elementary, my mom left a comically large piece of paper on the front door for my dad telling him not to forget to wish me a happy birthday."
"Not only did he not wish me a happy birthday, but he somehow didn’t see the gigantic sign when he walked in the house from work. So I got to read it when I got home from school."
"Sometimes I think about calling him to check in but then I think of that (and other complete fumbles) and then I just don’t."
~ TetonsTeaTin
"When I was in 4th grade, we did a Christmas recital where all the classes sung songs. My mom couldn’t make it because she had work so she sent my dad with the camcorder."
"He recorded the wrong kid. Very awkward watching the tape that night."
~ myturtlebitme
The original poster shared their reason for asking his question.
"Wanted to add that I'm a dad of a teen and that motivated me to ask this. The replies are just heartbreaking."
"I'm reading every single reply and I really hope all the dads and parents and basically everyone is learning something."
~ Bluemonday82
"Dad of an almost 4 year old daughter with two older brothers…. I’m scouring this post like there is cash on it somewhere."
~ Feeling_Advantage108
"I’m doing the same thing, stepdad that adores both my boy and girl. Couldn’t have kids myself. Searching for gold on this thread."
~ Numbthumbz
And the daughters appreciated it.
"This is healing my younger self—knowing that there are fathers trying to do right by their young girls.
"I'm 25 now and I think if he just would have asked me how I was doing (and meant it) it would have changed me a lot."
~ Loniceraa
"Same. My father was cartoonishly selfish, strict, controlling and mostly only saw me as a pretty, obedient mirror born to reflect his glory. What I thought, felt, liked, or wanted mattered very little and we seldom had what I would call 'real' conversations."
"Reading the posts of all the good fathers in this thread has been wonderful."
"I'm so happy there are tons of little girls out there with fathers who want to know them and see them for who they really are, who want to teach them things and bond with them."
"My father never wanted to get to know the real me, which is a shame because I'm a f*cking delight."
~ insolentpopinjay
As the OP stated, hopefully everyone has used this opportunity to learn something.
Is there anything you would add?
Gender transition is a lot more complicated than pop culture usually makes it out to be (there is no such thing as a single "The Surgery", for example [and don't ask trans people about their surgical history if you're not their medical provider. That's a really weird thing to do.]) and not all transgender people will choose to, or be able to, transition. Sometimes transition looks like simply asking the people around you to use a different name and different pronouns to refer to you, and sometimes it might look like starting hormone replacement therapy or seeking gender-affirming surgeries—or any number of other things.
People who do transition tend to notice big differences in the way that the people around them act, and not just the people who knew them before and during their transitions. A lot of the ways strangers treat you are based on split-second judgements based on the way you look, dress, or behave, so changing those things can significantly change the way you're treated.
If you're interested in some of those often drastic and fascinating changes people noticed in others' behavior throughout their transitions, keep reading.
Reddit user TyDye386 asked:
"Trans people of Reddit, what was the biggest 'culture shock' you noticed after transitioning to your gender?"
Personal Space
"Almost no touching by non family members."
"When I was living as a woman they would give hugs, touch my shoulder or arms, even strangers when it wasn't always appreciated."
"As a man now they will shake your hand nothing else."
- Dutch_Rayan
One Of The Guys
"The difference between being friends with people of same and different genders is shocking."
"Now that I'm out to my friends my guy friends treat me much differently. I'm one of them now, and it's a lot different than being friends with guys as a girl, or even being friends with girls as a girl."
- MyChemicalFoemance
"I’m curious how did they treat you differently if you could elaborate? I’m fascinated on what changes you noticed from them."
- tylrss
"They (my male friends) have been much more relaxed around me, they've been considerably more comfortable making fun of me (jokingly) and also when it comes to like physical contact and stuff my female friends are much less touchy with me now that I've transitioned socially where as the guy friends are generally more touchy with me, both in roughhousing and standard like platonic affection. So that was interesting."
"They're definitely more open around me, they tend to talk about their girlfriends more around the other guys vs with the girls. The girls still talk about their partners with me though so that hasn't changed lmao"
- MyChemicalFoemance
"Sorry, Bud"
"People weren’t joking when they said Canadians use the word “bud” a lot when talking to boys."
- nightingalegrey15
"Congrats on your transition to Canadian!"
- Error707
"trans-can"
- miami-architecture
"On the flip side, as a recently out, currently transitioning, and in almost no way 'passing' trans woman, getting people to not call me that is a challenge and a half, especially if they knew me before."
"I literally want to get a soundboard of that clip from Hamilton where he aggressively says 'CALL ME "SON" ONE MORE TIME!!'"
-Secretly_Pineapple
"All I can think of is Terrance and Phillip though."
"'I'm not your buddy, pal' 'I'm not your pal, guy!' 'I'm not your guy, bud!'"
- rainshadow425
friendship buddies GIF by South Park Giphy*Nods*
"male here. suddenly no one gives a sh*t about me, i feel totally anonymous. No one makes any comments about me or double takes or smiles or anything. I’ll get a nod but that’s it."
- Bonesaucer
"Nods in agreement*"
- Mango Weasel
"Welcome to being a man. We have jackets."
- FrostyByte62
"More importantly, we have pockets."
- Zenki95
"The pockets are amazing. They are huge and numerous."
- Bonesaucer
"You Should Wear..."
"People telling me what I should be wearing. Like I was at work one time in a super market a customer was like. 'So when are you going to start wearing a dress.' 'I worked on the freezer aisle so ... never? There are literally other women here right now, none of them are wearing a dress?'"
"Honestly the biggest surprise for me when I came out to all my friends. They were round for RPG night and I told them. They were all like 'OK cool' apart from one who yelled 'CALLED IT!' I had it in my head that there was going to be this hugely negative experience. That bit happened when I told my family. But you know what they say. You don't get to choose who you are related too."
- Artsygem87
One Of The Girls
"The amount of women in my family, my female friends, and even female acquaintances now confiding every single deep dark detail of their life in me, or just openly talking about their every bodily function."
"I became 'One of the girls' way before I was comfortable with it."
- O_My_Goshness_No
"Yea one of the big parts of sisterhood- and why female friend groups are so vicious to one of their own being hurt- is because we know everything about each other."
"There are very few boundaries drawn between women, family members especially."
- h0n3yst
My Behavior Didn't Change
"I'm an autistic man mid-20s."
"Not being perfectly polite (like, down to the non-autistic standard I guess) and even a little blunt is now considered 'honesty' rather than 'rudeness' or 'talking back'."
- tollthedead
A Spectrum Of Reactions
"I'm a nonbinary trans man. I think the biggest culture shock for me has been how personally some of the women around me take my transition."
"I have been pleasantly surprised that most people of either gender are chill with my trans-ness."
"But I've found that of the people who take issue with it, women are much more vocal about it. Like, men will just pointedly not use my pronouns if they have an issue, but some of the women in my family literally try to guilt trip me about it and women who barely know me tell me not to "mutilate" my chest. Which made me realize fully that women actually do see their breasts as part of their body and losing them would be a loss like losing a leg whereas to me my sense of self starts underneath them to the point that lying on my stomach is frustrating because I feel like my chest can never actually touch whatever surface I'm laying on. So despite the comment being rude, it's surprisingly validating."
- anarchomoth
You Like That Thing? Prove It.
"I'm a game developer and probably know more about video games than most people. As a guy if I said I was a fan of this or that series it would basically be taken uncritically. Now, as a woman, in groups of mostly men when I say 'I really like Metal Gear Solid' there's a weirdly high incidence of dudes feeling the need to quiz me to prove that I'm a 'real' fan."
"I mean catcalls and generally not being as safe in public also sucks, but we all knew about that stuff. The weird part was just not being taken seriously anymore on stuff I'm actually quite knowledgeable on."
"Edit: The handful of replies to this doubting these experiences are a case study in irony. Way to prove the point."
- brainwarts
Finding Community
"Honestly the transgender/nonbinary culture on its own is so much cooler than i expected. transitioning turned out to be a treat when it allowed me to make friends with all these gorgeous, stylish queer people that support me and let me be who I am."
- Mysterious_Bite_7394
Do you have similar experiences to share? Let us know in the comments below.
Life is full of double standards and double edged swords. Which of course means that life... is eternally unfair.
Whether it's a sexist issue, a work issue, a race issue, there always seems to be levels of judgement that leave certain parties feeling slighted.
A perfect example is curfews. I can understand having a later curfew when relating to age, but when growing up, several of my female friends had earlier curfews than their younger brothers. Fair? I think not.
Also, parenting is full of double standards. How many times was I told not to curse when half of the adults out there have the mouths of sailors? Mhmmm...
Redditoru/CLHiddenInPlainSightwanted to discuss the most egregious unfairness in life by asking:
What's the WORST double standard?
One of the most stressful and aggravating places for double standards is the workplace. If we all work hard and stay focused we should all be rewarded accordingly. So often that is not the case. Women and people of color and gender expressions are often overlooked in order to promote less productive people. I call BS.
Are you working?
Work Sucks GIF by MOODMANGiphy"My Boss has brought me into his office repeatedly to tell me I don't do enough work and that we are all swamped right now. My Department is short staffed. Yet he has no issues sitting at his desk watching movies all day long, yet if I sit for five minutes to shoot off an email I am wasting my time."
Wining and Working
"I used to work nights by choice, which meant that occasionally I'd knock off work and decide to have a glass of wine before bed. For me, that was about eight in the morning, when my housemates at the time were getting up to go to their nine-to-fives. The reaction from people was insane."
"For me, it seemed way weirder to sleep during the day, wake up in the late afternoon, then get dressed and go out for dinner and drinks with them, which basically meant that I was having wine for breakfast -- but from their perspective, that made perfect sense. Night work is weird."
Sleep Tight
"My stocking manager at my first job (stocking for a grocery store) didn't teach me any of the techniques or methods for efficiency (yes, there are methods and techniques to stocking shelves as quickly and efficiently as possible), so I was very slow at it for a while. Turns out he never trained me because he was too busy napping in the office during our shifts."
"He would help us unload the truck when it got in, and then disappear to his office for the next 5-6 hours while we stocked so he could sleep. Like I understand helping with the shelves isn't necessarily his job, but not training your new employee and sleeping on the job is super crappy."
Crazy Pops
"My grandfather. He acts like an a**hole then gets upset when he gets called on his bull. He's also very quick to use first amendment rights to try and cover his a**, which gets him yelled at even further. He also makes things political during family gatherings, which nets him plenty of nasty looks from both me and my mother. Unfortunately, chewing him out is the only way to shut him up. I'm sorry for complaining so much, I just really needed to get that out of my system."
Goes Both Ways
The Office Monday GIF by 20th Century Fox Home EntertainmentGiphy"Employers expecting loyalty from employees while provided none in return. Sorry, buddy, loyalty is a two-way street. If you can terminate my employment at a moment's notice, then I reserve the right to leave when I want to."
I knew a ton of these would be work related. As we head back from Covid it's really time to rethink and make adjustments to these situations. Also, grandpa is never changing.
Rationalize This!
angry pegboard nerds GIF by MonstercatGiphy"That my employer expects me to flawlessly come into work on time every day with no excuses allowed, yet our paychecks being late are met with rationalizations and excuses from the payroll department."
Puff Elsewhere
"Breaks during work. Acceptable for smokers, questionable for non."
"I'm a smoker, and at my last job I smoked 3 cigarettes every day. One at ~10am, another one right after lunch, and the third at ~15. I had 30 minutes lunchbreaks, which I only used 20 of to justify the smoking. And once he said I was smoking too much, and wasted so much time, blah blah. It didn't matter anymore when I told him I'd take my full lunchbreaks from now on, without interruption."
Crazy Historical Events That Sound Fake But Are 100% True | George Takei’s Oh Myyy
lazy days...
"It isn't the worst double standard, far from it, but it's annoying. It's about the workers who start early (and leave early) vs the workers who start late (and leave late). Let's say I start to work at the office at 6am while my coworker starts at 8am. If I leave at 2pm and he leaves at 4pm, we would have accomplished about the same amount of work. For some reason, I'd be the one who's tagged as lazy because I leave the job earlier. It didn't happen to me, but I witnessed it a few times during my career."
Mr. Dad
"When a mom can parent but a dad can only babysit."
"UGH. My kids are 9 and 11 and when they were younger (so not that long ago), my husband would take them grocery shopping or to the park or to the movies, etc. and so often he'd get "oh, how cute, you're babysitting!" He was like "Umm, no, they're my kids. I'm parenting." SMH."
Tools & Toys
Lets Go Ghost GIF by Arrow VideoGiphy"When I was a kid if I left my toys out and one of my parents stepped on them I got yelled at and in trouble for not putting my toys away. On the other hand, when my dad left his tools out and I stepped on one I got yelled at for not watching where I was stepping."
Blackmail
"I had a friend that worked at a batting cage in high school. The dude that owned the place was super shady and would always pay my friend like 1-2 weeks late. One day my friend had been waiting several days for his paycheck and the owner rolls in to work in a new Lexus. My friend ended up stealing some equipment and keeping it in his car with the threat of reporting the owner if he didn't get paid that day. Lo and behold the owner came up with the money and my friend quit the next day."
BS!
"School administrations will throw a dog-and-pony show about how much they will not tolerate bullying, yet will do nothing when it is taking place within their school. The bullied kid can speak up all they want but nothing will get done without hard evidence or some other BS. What happens when he has had enough and starts hitting back?"
"Suddenly he's the aggressor and now the Principal wants to exact their Zero Tolerance Policy on that kid who justifiably defended himself. If you are a parent and are concerned for your child being a recipient of bullying, empower them to use violence to defend themselves. In some situations violence is the answer."
- TheDoc16
Personal Loss
"Wage theft is larger than all other forms of theft combined, but is not considered a crime. If you steal $100 from the register, you will go to jail, be branded a felon and (potentially) lose your voting rights. If your boss leaves $100 out of your paycheck you can maybe recoup some portion of that after a protracted civil case at significant personal cost."
Louder!
Meme Reaction GIF by reactionseditorGiphy"Person 1 yells at Person 2, then gets offended if Person 2 yells back at them."
You're Hired
"That people won't hire you if you don't have experience but how do you get experience if no one hires you??"
"It's a sign of an industry that is perceived to have enough workers. They know that there are experienced people available, and they don't want to train up a green employee because it costs more."
- superkp
You're Fired!
"Companies will fire you without notice but expect a 2 week notice when the employee resigns."
"Honestly I do it more as a courtesy to my colleagues so I can properly transition my ongoing projects to them. I've been fortunate enough to like my coworkers at all of my jobs and I don't want to make their lives harder for little benefit to me. It's not like the new job is going anywhere in that time."
Respect
"Young people have to respect their elders, but then said elders can say and do as they please."
"Yeah. Had this happen to me. My parents raised me to be their equal. Multiple times I'd be dating a woman with "old fashion" parents who expected me to defer to them as though I'm twelve. They didn't like me much."
Sharp Edges
raul julia GIFGiphy"You can carry two single-edged knives, but a single double-edged knife is automatically illegal."
Medical Fails
"If you take maternity leave, your job/position is protected and your medical insurance still covers you. You can also use any campus facility at my previous university as you are still "considered a student" and your scholarships can be put on hold. NSERC even pays a stipend."
"Get cancer and need to take some time off? Welp, job's not held, your insurance refuses to cover you as you "aren't working". You'll also lose your scholarships and being "on a medical leave of absence" means you can't use any uni's facility without paying a premium."
- rainfal
Lacking Morales
"Colleges that teach ethics while ripping the students off in every way possible. I believe that ethics should still be about what is right or wrong... not what you can legally get away with."
"As a former college student, I felt this one. I feel like every college views students as walking ATMs and I went to a public college so I kind only imagine how much worse a private school would be."
Oh that dad one got me. Why can you keep your clothes on the floor but I can't? Life doesn't have to be perfect but it can certainly be a bit more fair.
Female Employee Wonders If She's In The Wrong By Using Company's Dress Code To Look 'Frumpy' On Purpose After Slew Of Sexist Comments
On the popular subreddit "Am I The A**hole?" Reddit users congregate to see whether their strange behavior is justified morally.
One of this past week's most viral posts was from a user named aWorkProblem0, who explained why she's been dressing "frumpier" at work.
Her post was titled "AITA for following the company's dress code to the letter but looking "ugly" and frumpy on purpose because I'm sick of sexist sh*t?"
"I'm a 23 year old woman at a company with a pretty... Old timey culture. Even though it's a programming job, where we are not customer facing, we have a "business casual" dress code. It's also got a really fucking sexist culture, I've lost patience with off color jokes and a lotttt of comments on my looks."
"I started out trying to dress nice, fitted tailored slacks, fashionable blouses, hair done, nice low heels or flats. I was always modest."
"And I got sooo sick of people saying sh*t about my body, my a**, even just the "you look reaaally nice today" that guys would never say to each other."
"So I started naturally tending towards my frumpier things."
"And when I went shopping I tended towards looser fitting stuff. Slacks with wide square legs that were loose in the butt and would hide my butt and legs. Several sizes above my usual size. Long cardigans that were big and warm but not fitted. Frumpy-ass loafers. I also cut off most of my hair and got some big tortose shell glasses that I've been wearing rather than contacts."
"I'm following the dress code very literally, slacks, cardigans, loafers are all allowed. But yeah all of them together make me look like a very frumpy elderly librarian (no offense to librarians, y'all are awesome!)"
"I basically stopped getting positive comments on my looks. Now it's not like some magic silver bullet, theres still more than enough BS, Enough that I'm quietly starting to job search."
"But my company is having a couple top executives come to the office for a week and my boss told me in a meeting to please 'dress professionally' during the visit"
"I asked him what he meant by that, was there something unprofessional about my day to day outfits?"
"He stumbled over his words for a bit then went 'Fit is a part of clothes looking professional, your items are fine but don't seem... Carefully selected for your size.'"
"I said that I was more comfortable in clothes of my current fit because I was sick and tired of comments on my body."
"He asked if there had been any new comments (I always told him about stuff in the past) and I said that there was nothing egrigious. He said that he or other managers had had a talk about each of those, and he hopes that would be enough to prevent future issues."
"I was thinking, if it's not those six, it'll be someone else, then someone else, then someone else. It's a culture problem, not a personal problem. But I didn't say that, I didn't want to push stuff too far."
"So I said I would select my clothes more carefully for the coming week."
"Now, that week is coming and I was thinking I would wear the same black slacks as always and pick one of my nicest sweaters and one of my nicest cardigans. But honestly I do not think that will solve the issue of fit that the talk was about to start with."
"AITA / WIBTA to keep following the dress code to the letter but look frumpy on purpose?"
lilmissaggie suggested the original poster get out of there.
"NTA but sounds like maybe time to find a new job at a place without a toxic work culture. They will limit your progression for not playing the game and not being 'professional'"
BFoert agreed.
"OP didn't say she was picking oversized clothes, but looser fitting clothes. Wide legged pants and flowy/drapey cardigans in her appropriate size are a style choice. OP states these items are in line with the dress code, which leads me to believe there isn't specific language about tailoring or fit in the dress code."
"I also work for a company with an outdated and fairly sexist dress code where they go so far as to state that 'underwear must be in good taste,' so I understand that frustration."
"If OP is following the dress code and her clothes are her appropriate size regardless of stylized fit, her manager overstepped. Which sounds like a common occurrence and the bigger issue of culture leading to the new job search."
scarletnightingale has been in a similar situation before.
"Honestly, I've been there (still there actually), I'm also looking for new work. It was the same thing. I dressed like a normal person, I got harassed, the company told me to not dress that way, I started dressing frumpy in clothes that were too big but in dress code, then they complained. Sometimes you feel like you can't win, it is an awful feeling and completely lonely since no matter what you do, somehow you are wrong."
toralights thinks OP should go for broke.
"NTA. This is the time to be petty. Find an outfit that is professional but ugly as h*ll, like a dull ugly brown boxy work outfit and just keep following the rules."
justhewayouare knows women have to learn early about sexist nonsense.
"Whats worse is that she likely knows how to dress like this because women start facing this even in Jr High. The dress code is always more strict for women than for men and in many instances highly unbalanced. The only difference is when you're a teenage girl authority figures tell you, 'By dressing this way you're preventing the boys around you from learning and are a distraction,' and then you grow up and your boss tells you this shit. It never ends."
chocopinkie brought out the sad truth: there is no "right" way to dress when the culture is toxic.
"hey i faced the same situation. but i was freshly graduated back then and was just confused. everything i wore was wrong. business blazer was wrong, long sleeve dress shirt was wrong, and eventually one dress my director commented was 'nice'.
after working for some time i realise that dress was NOTHING professional. it was too short, just slightly covering my ass, sheer at the shoulder region, and a skater dress basically. what they wanted wasn't professional. they wanted sexy. i was super creeped out."
Laure2018 suggested OP take things to the next level if necessary.
"If that ever happens again and I mean ever use the term sexual harassment. We use the example in our New Employee Orientation that saying Hey, you look nice today vs. heeeyyy. You look niiice today can be the difference between a compliment and sexual harassment (we also say it's better not to comment on appearance but rather work performance if you want to give a compliment). If you use the term sexual harassment it lets your boss know you know what is going on and that you aren't going to put up with it. Companies would rather not deal with sexual harassment suits. And most states protect against retaliation. I'm sorry you are going through this!"
Woman Wonders If She's In The Wrong For Going Out Of Her Way To Deny Sexist Car Salesman His Commission After Infuriating Interaction
A recent car-buying woman quickly found herself at the dealership watching two dudes discuss cars.
If she wanted that, she could've just stayed home and watched Pimp My Ride.
But as it's 2020, she expected a little less sexism. Not to mention, Pimp My Ride is no longer on television.
Redditor Delicious_Cancel is the proud new owner of an "upper end luxury car," as she informed in a recent post on Reddit's, Am I The A**Hole subreddit.
But the journey to the driver seat was far from smooth. Along the way she encountered an hour's worth of microaggressions, two trips to the dealership, a subsequent shaming from her friend, and a little guilt.
The guilt ultimately drove her to post the tale and ask Redditors for their moral judgment.
All this came about when u/Delicious_Cancel *finally* decided to pull the trigger and upgrade from her "35-year-old" Volvo.
Obvious question: how has she been driving this thing around since 1985?
Only one explanation is possible. That thing was all the rage, then became ugly and u/Delicious_Cancel stuck out the hard years, and then it turned cool all over again with the Normcore fashion movement.
She begins the story with the key variable, betraying some slightly internalized, car-based gender associations.
"I took my boyfriend with me to the dealership as you do as a couple."
Very quickly, even though she was the one paying for the car and would be the one driving it, Delicious_Cancel found herself on the sidelines in a palpable fashion.
"A salesman approached us and the entire time, from the start to finish, kept talking to my boyfriend even though I clearly introduced myself and told him the car was for me and that I would be paying outright for it."
Ms. Delicious could even count on her boyfriend noticing the biased dynamic, and calling attention to it, in his own subtle way.
"My boyfriend was off put by thing and kept referring the salesman to me when he asked my boyfriend a question and even pointedly said at some point " I don't know, it's Delicious_Cancel's car, ask her."
**It's difficult not to laugh at the image of her boyfriend actually calling her that in public but Reddit's rules require anonymity.
The man-to-man activism did not do the job.
"The salesmen would then look at me, I'd answer and then the next question, back to my boyfriend."
"The only question I was asked was around colour preference and leather vs fabric interior."
Ouch. That plays like a cartoon training video you'd watch at work to learn how not to be sexist.
When Delicious_Cancel decided she wanted the car despite the rotten sales experience, the sales guy proposed they begin the paperwork.
She wanted to proceed on her terms.
"I interjected and said I wanted to think about it. I had already decided on the car but I didn't want to commission to go to him."
She was adamant enough to make a second trip to exact some revenge.
"So we left and came back the next morning, a different salesperson greeted us and this one was much better, ridiculously charming."
"I told him we'd driven the car yesterday and decided to buy it and we did, no hassles."
And that, folks, is how you manipulate the income of strangers.
Now, though, Delicious_Cancel is having some second thoughts after a friend empathized with the first salesman.
"I was recounting this story to a friend of mine yesterday who is sales (but in IT) told me I was a bit of an a**hole because the previous salesman had done all the work and I gave the sale to someone else when I was wanting to buy the car anyway."
Cue unanimous support from Redditors. Plenty got very real about why she shouldn't feel any guilt at all.
"Typical for car salesmen to ignore the women and talk to the man, but you made it more than clear it was all on you."
"Your money you get to choose how to spend it and who gets it. At the end of the day the dealership still got your cash." u/Netflixandzzz
"Everyone in commission sales knows "spoils go to the closer". Don't feel guilty, not in the slightest." u/starlabsdropout
"FYI, he most likely got a "half deal". The commission was probably split in half by both salesmen."
"If you are helped by two salesmen, the sale was most likely split because they both did the work." u/creepy_lil_lady
Some gave advice about how to help future women car buyers dealing with the guy.
"Personally I'd make sure to let him or his boss know why he didn't get the sale, maybe then he might reconsider how he treats potential customers." u/Whisky-Toad
"I'd leave a review along the lines of, 'we went and spoke to X sales person but he was really rude, dismissive, and sexist toward me during my visit. So we left but after meeting Y sales person we decided we made the right decision. I would happy work with Y sales person again.'" u/LindaFrmPortia
Others cut through and evaluated the guy on a pure sales technique basis. They still considered him a dingus.
"He doesn't deserve the sale. Any good salesperson knows you get to the one making the decision and deal with them." u/Stup2plending
"He did a crappy job because he did not identify (or choose to) and deal with the one making the actual purchase decision."
One was no stranger to this kind of thing.
"A lot of salespeople have this ingrained misogyny. My wife and I notice it, too."
"We were recently looking at properties with an agent (a woman). The agent would not stop looking at me and asking me questions." u/arbitrage75
Finally, there were those that possessed the wisdom of simplicity.
"You get sales by gasp being a good salesperson! He was not." u/MarrissaCooper
"The previous salesman didn't do all the work... Part of his job is not being an a**hole to clients. He failed to do that." u/godrestsinreason
"I thought sales people are supposed to be good at talking to others." u/Era555